scottishlass (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
scottishlass) wrote2003-08-21 11:19 pm
scottishlass) wrote2003-08-21 11:19 pm
Entry tags:
On (Fan) Fiction #2
I have thought about all the comments that were made today and I have to agree, a beta reader is essential in becoming a good writer.
I think every writer, be it in pro or fanfic should do several beta runs to understand how important a beta reader is. But try to tell that to all the new 'aspiring' teeny writers :)
Funnily enough, when I do a beta I almost ALWAYS get into trouble. Be it because I'm too harsh, too soft or to whatnot.
Here is an example about a beta I did two years ago, a big poodoo I made as not only the writer was pissed off with me but half of the list it was posted on thought of me as a second Medusa eating little writers for breakfast 'bleh'.
This is a beta from the Luke and Mara fandom, a sub fandom from Star Wars Expanded Universe. If you know Luke Skywalker, you know he is a goody two shoes, who thinks more than he acts and also is far too shy to just step up to Mara Jade, let alone telling her he loves her (even in profic they needed ten frelling years to actually get together). Anyway, this piece was a short story and it was asked to be beta read ON LIST, meaning the beta was supposed to be send to the list rather than the author herself ...
This is kind of inspired
by that RR awhile ago, though I'm not sure if it fits in with the way
it was going or not. So, just consider it an "offshoot." All
constructive feedback appreciated.
[snip]
Well it is a good start but - and here the constructive criticism kicks in
- there are several points that you should take care of for this and any
future fics you are writing:
1. Know thy characters ...
"You take those repress pills, right?" Luke asked.
"Well... I actually haven't for a few months. But I don't think it's a
problem. "
"That's good. Pretty sure?"
That would a dark side Luke ask but not the light sider. That is totally
out of character, just as well as some other stuff, this was the first
thing that I noted but there are other moments as well.
2. Get thee beta readers
It is always very good if you have two or more beta readers who go over the
stories with a comb ... Most of us have two, one for any spelling and
grammatical mistakes and one for the coherency of the story (like
in-character acting of the canon characters, checking canon law etc.)
Beta readers are invaluable and take up a great part in making a fic a good
one.
For example: I didn't understand the ending ... one time Mara was in the
lift on her way to the fire and Luke still in the room at the lodging house
and then in the last scene she is with him again? And why does Callista
come into play?
Beta readers will ask you the same questions and help you to avoid
confusion in the reader.
3. Get descriptive
You are already using descriptive verbs and adjectives but sometimes they
conjure up a slightly and unintentionally funny image instead.
She slouched with her left hand on her hip, eying Luke narrowly.
I know what you meant but the visual I have is totally funny and destroys
the scene you want to create.
Additionally, if you don't want to write NC17 or R-rated love scenes, then
don't that is okay, but don't handle it with just one sentence like this:
And of course, later they wound up in bed.
Ouch ... Get more into this statement .. you later elaborate that they are
doing it on an irregular basis but it would be good to see how it happened
and how they ended up in this arrangement.
Which leads me to my last point:
4. Get into the heads of the characters, make them speak up:
Two of the best authors in profic who really got into the minds of their
original characters are Virginia Woolfe and James Joyce. Of course, as a
fanfic author we cannot reach their brilliancy and skill but we can learn
from them. You can describe a lot of the plot by getting into the
characters' minds. Let them explain what happened and why something leads to
a certain situation. That not only makes it easier for the reader to
understand your plot but also cleans up occurring plot holes.
I know this is a lot to swallow, but I received this kind of sermon after I
had posted my first ever fic in another fandom. It helped me a great
deal, and I hope that it will help you too....
As I said, this is a good start, it just needs to be 'tweaked'.
Death threads, comments welcome.
Una
Even now, after two years of posting that beta, I'm some sort of harpy who overestimates her fics and makes other authors down on that list. IMHO that is a very valid and helpful beta, the original fic was really painful to read because both Luke and Mara were totally out of character. It felt as if Billy Boyd would all of a sudden sprout a Yankee accent, if you know what I mean.
Why can't ppl accept constructive criticism to make their own lives as well as that of their readers and archivists easier? *harumph*
But to counter the balance and not to appear like a high and mighty little bitch who always knows better, here is my latest beta that was done by
spacellama
Re: [bloominfanfic] BETA: Serendipity vignette #3 - The Photo Shoot - NC17
Zowie. What a gorgeously romantic smut biscuit. The
sex of course, was *hot*. But also precious. I'm not
entirely sure how you managed to let me, an outsider,
view such an intimate and marvelous moment without
making me *feel* like a voyeur. And yet you did.
High-calibre writing, lady.
Of course, now that you know how much I adored the
piece, here goes my nit-picky (and grammatically anal)
beta:
"Orlando replied and gave Megan a soft kiss onto her
exposed neck." ... phrase "gave... a soft kiss onto"
is a usage I'm not used to. Maybe "dropped a soft kiss
onto"? or "gave her a soft kiss on her exposed neck"?
"exposed neck. almost letting go of the receiver" ...
that full-stop after "neck" should be a comma
""Fabulous, booze and nosh, but make sure to have some
real milk handy for tea, Megan can't hold soy milk
since her pregnancy, she is a wimp,"" ... run-on here.
I'd change to three separate sentences: "Fabulous:
booze and nosh. But make sure to have some real milk
handy for tea; Megan can't handle soymilk since her
pregnancy. She's a wimp." Or something like that.
"Orli replied while he winked at his wife who punched
him playfully onto his arm." ... There's a lot of
simultaneous action here, and it's hard to visualize
three things going on at once. May consider saying and
winking, then punching.
"putting a soft kiss on her belly," ... May consider
changing "putting" to "placing" (just more common turn
of phrase)
"Megan breathed and shut her eyes, shivers of
anticipation and lust exploded in her body and with a
groan she wrapped her arms around his neck." ...
run-on again. Easy fix, though: "...her eyes. Shivers
of anticipation..."
"The man grinned when he heard Orlando's excited voice
coming from downstairs and the
delighted laughter of Megan." ... dangling gerund
here. Possibly recast sentence: "The man grinned when
he heard Orlando's excited voice and Megan's delighted
laughter coming from downstairs."
"Putting away his camera away, he went over to te
landing " ... should be "the landing"
""Well at least Viggo could have warned us, we need to
climb the Manga Parbat to get to his studio,"" ... I
just love this line. Can so hear Orli saying it. :)
"With a shake of her head she reached the top of the
stairs "... for some reason, this made me have the
silly mental image of Megan shaking her head and
magically zatting to the top of the stairs. Maybe I'm
just too open to silly mental images.
"and Viggo rubbed his hands together, eager to start.
"So, let's start, okay?" ... repeated use of "start"
here. Maybe, "... and Viggo rubbed his hands together
eagerly. "So let's start, okay?""
""Now, Viggo, if you think I will hold my naked butt
into the camera, you should think again,"" ... maybe
"shove my naked butt into the camera"?
"threw Viggo a pitiful glance but the older man " ...
add comma between "glance" and "but"
"Orlando grinned and stepping in front of her, he
cupped her face in his hands and put a soft kiss on
her forehead" ... might consider slight rewording:
"Orlando grinned and stepped in front of her, cupping
her face..."
""Are you ready, love?""... gah. Sometimes the
simplest lines are the most sublime.
"not sure, if her voice would hold"... I don't think
you need the comma between "sure" and "if"; your call
though
"that she even missed Orli slipping away and came to
stand beside Viggo who was busy snapping pictures."
... consider rewording: "...she even missed Orli
slipping away and coming back to stand beside Viggo,
who was..."
"Fool around and try out what you feel comfortable
with,""... You know, oddly enough, I can so clearly
imagine Viggo saying *that*. (hee)
"Viggo's encouraging remarks spurned her on and she
lent back," ... "spurned" should probably be "spurred"
and "lent" probably should be "leaned"
"Megan felt Orli slipping his arms around her from the
back and as if he wanted to protect her, his hands
slipped around her belly. Slipping her hands into his
they both looked at each other, long and deep."...
"slipping" repeated a few times in this short passage.
Although it is a very evocative word, you may consider
changing it at least once.
"Having watched Megan posing for Viggo, it had made
him feel all sorts of things, he had felt pride, love,
and lust for this beautiful woman." ... internal
transitions in this passage are a little awkward. How
about "Watching Megan pose for the camera made Orli
feel all sorts of things: pride, love, and lust for
this beautiful woman"?
"The last shot of the day, as far as he was concerned,
and he was eager to get into the dark room and start
developing the negatives."... maybe "He'd taken the
last shot of the day, as far as he was concerned, and
he was.."
"A shiver went down her spine when she watcher her
husband stalking over towards her, like a predator
stalking its prey." ... change "watcher" to "watched"
"Their gazes met in the glass and when Orli untied the
knot of her wraparound, letting it fall down around
her curves, Megan bit her lips when a shiver of
passion ran
through her." ... lots of things going on at one time.
Consider: "Their gazes met in teh glass, and when Orli
untied the knot of her wraparound and let it fall down
around her curves, Megan bit her lip. A shiver of
passion ran through her."
"a soft moan elicited from her lips." ... "elicited"
seems strange here. Usually someone elicits something,
but here the somehting is eliciting all by itself.
Possibly "Her nipples grew hard as her husband skimmed
his thumbs over them. His touch elicited a soft moan
from her lips."
"and with a sob, she tried to forestall the
inevitable, but her hips, her whole movie,
had a sense of her own." .. should "movie" be "body"?
"It was as simple as that, and yet, both knew it was
never enough. Their need was more than meeting their
physical needs, and both knew it." ...
"both knew it" is repeated. Possible to remove or replace one?
"whimpers and murmurs that were so unique of her." ...
"unique of her" probably should be "unique to her"
-----------
And that is all. Thank you so much for letting me read
this; it was truly lovely.
Viv build up the beta really well, she gives praise but also takes me through the paces. And she damn well helps me making my fic but also my overall writing better :)
I think every writer, be it in pro or fanfic should do several beta runs to understand how important a beta reader is. But try to tell that to all the new 'aspiring' teeny writers :)
Funnily enough, when I do a beta I almost ALWAYS get into trouble. Be it because I'm too harsh, too soft or to whatnot.
Here is an example about a beta I did two years ago, a big poodoo I made as not only the writer was pissed off with me but half of the list it was posted on thought of me as a second Medusa eating little writers for breakfast 'bleh'.
This is a beta from the Luke and Mara fandom, a sub fandom from Star Wars Expanded Universe. If you know Luke Skywalker, you know he is a goody two shoes, who thinks more than he acts and also is far too shy to just step up to Mara Jade, let alone telling her he loves her (even in profic they needed ten frelling years to actually get together). Anyway, this piece was a short story and it was asked to be beta read ON LIST, meaning the beta was supposed to be send to the list rather than the author herself ...
This is kind of inspired
by that RR awhile ago, though I'm not sure if it fits in with the way
it was going or not. So, just consider it an "offshoot." All
constructive feedback appreciated.
[snip]
Well it is a good start but - and here the constructive criticism kicks in
- there are several points that you should take care of for this and any
future fics you are writing:
1. Know thy characters ...
"You take those repress pills, right?" Luke asked.
"Well... I actually haven't for a few months. But I don't think it's a
problem. "
"That's good. Pretty sure?"
That would a dark side Luke ask but not the light sider. That is totally
out of character, just as well as some other stuff, this was the first
thing that I noted but there are other moments as well.
2. Get thee beta readers
It is always very good if you have two or more beta readers who go over the
stories with a comb ... Most of us have two, one for any spelling and
grammatical mistakes and one for the coherency of the story (like
in-character acting of the canon characters, checking canon law etc.)
Beta readers are invaluable and take up a great part in making a fic a good
one.
For example: I didn't understand the ending ... one time Mara was in the
lift on her way to the fire and Luke still in the room at the lodging house
and then in the last scene she is with him again? And why does Callista
come into play?
Beta readers will ask you the same questions and help you to avoid
confusion in the reader.
3. Get descriptive
You are already using descriptive verbs and adjectives but sometimes they
conjure up a slightly and unintentionally funny image instead.
She slouched with her left hand on her hip, eying Luke narrowly.
I know what you meant but the visual I have is totally funny and destroys
the scene you want to create.
Additionally, if you don't want to write NC17 or R-rated love scenes, then
don't that is okay, but don't handle it with just one sentence like this:
And of course, later they wound up in bed.
Ouch ... Get more into this statement .. you later elaborate that they are
doing it on an irregular basis but it would be good to see how it happened
and how they ended up in this arrangement.
Which leads me to my last point:
4. Get into the heads of the characters, make them speak up:
Two of the best authors in profic who really got into the minds of their
original characters are Virginia Woolfe and James Joyce. Of course, as a
fanfic author we cannot reach their brilliancy and skill but we can learn
from them. You can describe a lot of the plot by getting into the
characters' minds. Let them explain what happened and why something leads to
a certain situation. That not only makes it easier for the reader to
understand your plot but also cleans up occurring plot holes.
I know this is a lot to swallow, but I received this kind of sermon after I
had posted my first ever fic in another fandom. It helped me a great
deal, and I hope that it will help you too....
As I said, this is a good start, it just needs to be 'tweaked'.
Death threads, comments welcome.
Una
Even now, after two years of posting that beta, I'm some sort of harpy who overestimates her fics and makes other authors down on that list. IMHO that is a very valid and helpful beta, the original fic was really painful to read because both Luke and Mara were totally out of character. It felt as if Billy Boyd would all of a sudden sprout a Yankee accent, if you know what I mean.
Why can't ppl accept constructive criticism to make their own lives as well as that of their readers and archivists easier? *harumph*
But to counter the balance and not to appear like a high and mighty little bitch who always knows better, here is my latest beta that was done by
spacellamaRe: [bloominfanfic] BETA: Serendipity vignette #3 - The Photo Shoot - NC17
Zowie. What a gorgeously romantic smut biscuit. The
sex of course, was *hot*. But also precious. I'm not
entirely sure how you managed to let me, an outsider,
view such an intimate and marvelous moment without
making me *feel* like a voyeur. And yet you did.
High-calibre writing, lady.
Of course, now that you know how much I adored the
piece, here goes my nit-picky (and grammatically anal)
beta:
"Orlando replied and gave Megan a soft kiss onto her
exposed neck." ... phrase "gave... a soft kiss onto"
is a usage I'm not used to. Maybe "dropped a soft kiss
onto"? or "gave her a soft kiss on her exposed neck"?
"exposed neck. almost letting go of the receiver" ...
that full-stop after "neck" should be a comma
""Fabulous, booze and nosh, but make sure to have some
real milk handy for tea, Megan can't hold soy milk
since her pregnancy, she is a wimp,"" ... run-on here.
I'd change to three separate sentences: "Fabulous:
booze and nosh. But make sure to have some real milk
handy for tea; Megan can't handle soymilk since her
pregnancy. She's a wimp." Or something like that.
"Orli replied while he winked at his wife who punched
him playfully onto his arm." ... There's a lot of
simultaneous action here, and it's hard to visualize
three things going on at once. May consider saying and
winking, then punching.
"putting a soft kiss on her belly," ... May consider
changing "putting" to "placing" (just more common turn
of phrase)
"Megan breathed and shut her eyes, shivers of
anticipation and lust exploded in her body and with a
groan she wrapped her arms around his neck." ...
run-on again. Easy fix, though: "...her eyes. Shivers
of anticipation..."
"The man grinned when he heard Orlando's excited voice
coming from downstairs and the
delighted laughter of Megan." ... dangling gerund
here. Possibly recast sentence: "The man grinned when
he heard Orlando's excited voice and Megan's delighted
laughter coming from downstairs."
"Putting away his camera away, he went over to te
landing " ... should be "the landing"
""Well at least Viggo could have warned us, we need to
climb the Manga Parbat to get to his studio,"" ... I
just love this line. Can so hear Orli saying it. :)
"With a shake of her head she reached the top of the
stairs "... for some reason, this made me have the
silly mental image of Megan shaking her head and
magically zatting to the top of the stairs. Maybe I'm
just too open to silly mental images.
"and Viggo rubbed his hands together, eager to start.
"So, let's start, okay?" ... repeated use of "start"
here. Maybe, "... and Viggo rubbed his hands together
eagerly. "So let's start, okay?""
""Now, Viggo, if you think I will hold my naked butt
into the camera, you should think again,"" ... maybe
"shove my naked butt into the camera"?
"threw Viggo a pitiful glance but the older man " ...
add comma between "glance" and "but"
"Orlando grinned and stepping in front of her, he
cupped her face in his hands and put a soft kiss on
her forehead" ... might consider slight rewording:
"Orlando grinned and stepped in front of her, cupping
her face..."
""Are you ready, love?""... gah. Sometimes the
simplest lines are the most sublime.
"not sure, if her voice would hold"... I don't think
you need the comma between "sure" and "if"; your call
though
"that she even missed Orli slipping away and came to
stand beside Viggo who was busy snapping pictures."
... consider rewording: "...she even missed Orli
slipping away and coming back to stand beside Viggo,
who was..."
"Fool around and try out what you feel comfortable
with,""... You know, oddly enough, I can so clearly
imagine Viggo saying *that*. (hee)
"Viggo's encouraging remarks spurned her on and she
lent back," ... "spurned" should probably be "spurred"
and "lent" probably should be "leaned"
"Megan felt Orli slipping his arms around her from the
back and as if he wanted to protect her, his hands
slipped around her belly. Slipping her hands into his
they both looked at each other, long and deep."...
"slipping" repeated a few times in this short passage.
Although it is a very evocative word, you may consider
changing it at least once.
"Having watched Megan posing for Viggo, it had made
him feel all sorts of things, he had felt pride, love,
and lust for this beautiful woman." ... internal
transitions in this passage are a little awkward. How
about "Watching Megan pose for the camera made Orli
feel all sorts of things: pride, love, and lust for
this beautiful woman"?
"The last shot of the day, as far as he was concerned,
and he was eager to get into the dark room and start
developing the negatives."... maybe "He'd taken the
last shot of the day, as far as he was concerned, and
he was.."
"A shiver went down her spine when she watcher her
husband stalking over towards her, like a predator
stalking its prey." ... change "watcher" to "watched"
"Their gazes met in the glass and when Orli untied the
knot of her wraparound, letting it fall down around
her curves, Megan bit her lips when a shiver of
passion ran
through her." ... lots of things going on at one time.
Consider: "Their gazes met in teh glass, and when Orli
untied the knot of her wraparound and let it fall down
around her curves, Megan bit her lip. A shiver of
passion ran through her."
"a soft moan elicited from her lips." ... "elicited"
seems strange here. Usually someone elicits something,
but here the somehting is eliciting all by itself.
Possibly "Her nipples grew hard as her husband skimmed
his thumbs over them. His touch elicited a soft moan
from her lips."
"and with a sob, she tried to forestall the
inevitable, but her hips, her whole movie,
had a sense of her own." .. should "movie" be "body"?
"It was as simple as that, and yet, both knew it was
never enough. Their need was more than meeting their
physical needs, and both knew it." ...
"both knew it" is repeated. Possible to remove or replace one?
"whimpers and murmurs that were so unique of her." ...
"unique of her" probably should be "unique to her"
-----------
And that is all. Thank you so much for letting me read
this; it was truly lovely.
Viv build up the beta really well, she gives praise but also takes me through the paces. And she damn well helps me making my fic but also my overall writing better :)
no subject
They may SAY they want constructive criticism (or constructive feedback, I should say) in their author's notes, but what they really want is just positive feedback.
Alas, constructive of late has meant only including positive stuff, and not the negative.
But let it be said, if I get ANYONE to beta my work, I want it ripped to absolute shreds if need be. I want it CONSTRUCTIVE so that I can get better!
Unfortunately, a lot of people don't feel the same way. Which ties back in to the #1 post about why there is so much shit!fic out there. *sigh*
Okay, going to work now and not wasting any more time.
Hugs, dear!
no subject
you are right constructive means positive to a lot of ppl suddenly :s Perhaps they should have a look at the Wenster's entry again.
I hope you have a good Friday, even though you are at work. Perhaps this nice guy turns up again :)
Take care,
Una
no subject
I feel the same... How can you become a good writer? How can you learn something? How can you evolve as a writer if you can't take the best out of the constructive criticisms? You just can not do it.
Most of the aspiring (in fact, not only the aspiring ones) writers say "Oh yes, we want constructive criticism", but it is not always the truth. You need to be ready to receive criticisms, to accept them and to think about them. They shall help you. But if you are suffering from the "me, myself and I perfection" syndrome, you won't accept negative stuff. The un-constructive criticisms, on the other hand, you want to avoid them. They are mean, they could destroy all your confidence and your creativity. But the constructive ones are priceless.
I think that the negative stuff helps you. I want to get better. I don't think that I'm perfect, I need to get better. I have too much love and respect for the writing. You could reach another step, you could change the path of your writing, you could get better! So be it, at least you will evolve in your art.
I have to say that getting some nice words, some positive stuff, is also crucial because, if you don't have any good points in your writing and that nobody tell you your forces, you won't be really motivate... I think that negative and positive criticisms are both essential.
When I look around, I'm sad to notice that a lot of people don't feel the same way... It would make the things easier for everyone: from writers, to readers, to archivists.
*Hugs*
no subject
No one is perfect not even the pro writers, otherwise I and my editor colleagues would be out of business :)
no subject
I just read the beta and that nice person gave you the best out of her criticisms. Positive and negative stuff. I think that beta is really constructive, Una. :o)
no subject
no subject
Huggles
Da Elf
no subject
Well Viv wouldn't want to be here right now .. she is in MEXICO having the time of her life with conejo :) A very lucky lady :)
As for you, Little Miss Elf, you have lots of stories inside of yourself. We just have to get you back into balance with yourself and then they will just pour out of you ... rattling indeed :)
Una